END-OF-FRAME, once again..

[Scott Kostyshak]

On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 03:14:48PM +0200, Daniel wrote:
> On 13/10/2021 16:50, Scott Kostyshak wrote:
> > On Wed, Oct 13, 2021 at 12:13:30PM +0200, Daniel wrote:
> > > Something that I thought while using beamer with LyX was that it seems that
> > > it would be easier if Frames would not "hang together". I mean: right now,
> > > if you press enter at the end or beginning of a frame, you get a new line
> > > that is extending the same frame. Wouldn't it be easier if you get a new
> > > frame this way and instead would just nest stuff in order to get it onto a
> > > specific frame? So, no need for separators either. There may be issues with
> > > this suggestion that I have not thought careful enough about but on the face
> > > of it, it seems like a good idea to me and to solve the issues you
> > > mentioned. What do you think?
> > 
> > I think the workflow you're suggesting makes the not-always-true assumption that the user does not use the "frame" layout for the *content* of the frame, and only uses nested layouts (e.g., itemize or standard). Did I understand right?
> 
> Yes. It is not a conservative approach. It suggest to not use the frame
> layout for the content because, if I see it correctly, this can be equally
> achieved by using a nested standard layout. So, why not have just one way of
> doing things. And it seems to me more consistent in that, say, itemized
> lists have to be nested as well within a frame which makes them appear at
> another level than the content of the frame when not nested but they are
> not. Isn't that a bit strange or misleading?
> 
> Instead, everything will have to be nested if it should go on a frame. (Of
> course there must be a lyx2lyx mechanism to transfer old beamer documents to
> the new "nesting-style".)
> 
> The workflow would in the new style would be like this:
> 
> 1. Select the Frame layout to create a new frame.
> 2. Press enter which creates a nested Standard paragraph to add content.
> 3. Press enter twice to un-nest and get a Frame layout which starts a new
> frame.
> 
> Doesn't this appear more simple and intuitive?

It does. I think it is a reasonable proposal. I'm just not sure everyone will agree. For example, our own beamer example uses the frame layout for content.

> > What abut making it so that if the user changes the layout to "frame title", then a *new* frame is started (i.e., LyX realizes "oh this frame already has a frame title so the user must want a new frame)?
> 
> I still tend to prefer the way I suggested because of its simplicity
> (especially for new users or people who use, say, beamer not frequently)
> unless it has some flaw I missed.

Perhaps we can start by writing some use cases that are currently annoying with the current interface. Then we can propose different interfaces to make those workflows easier. I think your proposal is a reasonable one, but I'm not sure it's the only one. Also, I'm hesitant to start this conversation since I would really want to see Jürgen's thoughts and I don't think he has much time these days.

The main confusion I see is that I think users would like one key combination that always produces a new frame. Currently, the user has to think whether to do "Alt + P, return" or "Alt + P, shift + return", depending on what nesting level they are currently at. Do you agree this is the main problem that your proposal and my proposal were both trying to solve? Is there any other big issue with the current workflow?

Scott
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